Just over two weeks in power, the AAP government in Delhi is creating headlines, both positive and negative. Questions are raised on their style of functioning as one section criticises them saying they govern a state like a municipality.
I spoke to Shailaja Chandra, Delhi’s first woman Chief Secretary who retired in 2004, for Deccan Herald. We spoke about AAP’s governance model and administrative vision. The excerpts of the interview appeared in Deccan Herald on January 12, 2014.
You have seen the poll promises made by AAP. You had an inside view of how a government function. In its manifesto, the party had promised reduction in power prices and providing 700 litres of free water every day. How implementable it is?
AAP’s agenda appears to be first and foremost to do something on corruption because there was so much resentment in Delhi. For a citizen, the fact that he was not getting his due, whether it was caused by price rise, or any other factor and was made to move from here to there and ultimately to have to give money to get things done had made him angry. Therefore AAP’s promise that they would get rid of corruption as their first target made sense. But I don’t think they can achieve things on a large scale only through volunteers and suchlike. The best way would have been to use technology to reduce public interface. There are so many reports available which have not been acted upon. If they had only implemented those reports they would have made a bigger dent on the issue of corruption in public offices.
The party had promised reduction in power prices and providing 700 litres of free water every day. This is a time, almost an era when governments the world over are moving away from giving subsidies.
They had always referred to large scale corruption as well as inflation in the projection of cost of power; they were certain they would be able to transform the sector and bring down power tariff by effecting savings. That made sense. But I am not sure how all that would fall into place as quickly as they want which is perhaps why they have opted for subsidy. Subsidies in the power sector have been used throughout the country, but much more so in the agricultural states which needed irrigation, like Punjab. Many state electricity boards have been ruined in the 1980s, 1990s largely because they gave free electricity for agriculture.
In the case of urban India, this (subsidy for power) was not a phenomenon. This is the first time. Since AAP’s voters are urban voters, they have gone ahead and announced the subsidies. The subsidy comes out of the budget and the budget is already earmarked for many things. And obviously somewhere a cut would have to be made to balance the budget. In effect they will have to prune on something, which already has been agreed to be done to locate funds for subsidies. The effect of that will be known only when people stop getting some services that they have been accustomed to.
There is a fear that there will be some impact on government coffers?
There will be an impact on the budget, i.e the funds the Delhi government controls. I should also clarify that unlike say Mumbai or other state capitals, which get only a share of the revenue collected, but most goes back into the finances of the state. Later, some money is given back to the city for its development. Delhi on the other hand, gets to keep what it earns through commercial taxes and through so many other taxes which are levied locally. So to that extent, Delhi is in a much more comfortable position.
Therefore I would not go so far as to say that the end of the world will come tomorrow. But definitely there should have to be some tightening elsewhere if they wanted to give subsidies.
In the case of water, the question is do you want efficiency, do you want conservation? Our resources have to be used in a rational kind of way. And subsidy is not the route. The real route (in case of water) would have been to see that piped water connections are given to all people who do not have piped water and metered connections are given to all those who do not have meters. And if subsidy had at all to be increased, it should have been given only to the lower strata.
We also know from history and economics that subsidies do not work. Subsidies once given always go to people who do not deserve it. They very seldom reach the people who really need subsidies.
(Arvind Kejriwal collecting petitions from public during the first and last ‘Janata Durbar’ on Jan 11, 2014)
But many governments are following the AAP way. Haryana has halved the power tariff and there are demands in Maharashtra. Isn’t it that people deserve lower tariff? Is it the right way?
People may have their views but Delhi has been able to give a higher standard of living compared to many other places and became something of a model in terms of modernisation. Now if Delhi citizens start to get subsidy there will be a panic reaction in other states. A feeling will gain ground that urban voters will be upset if Governments do not follow the Delhi example and then they too will opt for this route.
Looking at initial days, do you think that AAP is still chained to their Jan Lokpal mindset? Aren’t they just trying a monolithic structure to solve problems? Do you think that they have an administrative vision?
I don’t think that they have expressed any long term administrative or political, ideological position. It is not clear exactly what they stand for. Basically they are very pleased voters have voted for them in large numbers. Undoubtedly there is a lot of support for AAP but this is not necessarily support for any individual or a particular party but it is a vote for change. People wanted change at any cost and they feel that change of any kind may be better than put up with the known dispensations. It so happened that there was space available which was filled by AAP.
I don’t know whether they have thought through their future vision. There have been many studies, many reports by people who did have any axe to grind or were not trying to placate any particular vote bank. These reports show how to bring about efficiency. The growth of a city and its wealth determines the wealth of the nation. Ultimately the country’s wealth and its growth is a reflection of what transpires in the urban areas. That wealth is generated by giving opportunities to people- opportunities to work, opportunities to innovate, and opportunities to be able to be self employed, to be creative. Everyone would agree that this is what makes a city successful. So when you talk about urban areas, the aspirations of people have to be responded to and that means that they should be able to do better and the next generation should be able to do even better. To do that, one needs a long term vision which would lay the ground for such growth. All reports lay great emphasis on trying to bridge gaps and to focus on inclusiveness. I do not see this vision in the present approach of AAP. Their preoccupation seems to be with corruption and being able to find people who are corrupt and sending them to jail, to nab political people and frighten officials into working by making it clear that they will be punished if they are found wanting in their performance or taking bribes. Their programme seems to be more of this kind of approach rather than the other earlier approach of providing conditions that foster innovation and prosperity.
It appears that there is lack of understanding of the system. Within a fortnight, we see a couple of ministers taking awkward steps.
Delhi somehow always had either BJP or Congress ruling the state and these people came with long years of experience. And Delhi politicians have grown up watching seniors. It is the same with bureaucrats. We too were raw when we joined the services but we watched seniors and learned how to administer and behave in a mature fashion.
I think whatever has happened recently is a string of stray incidents. They will happen, and they will continue to happen not just here, but in various states. We don’t hear about such incidents because they do not take place in Delhi. I have also been a part of two different state governments where bizarre kinds of things were often done. They happened in the early stages. I don’t think one should make a big issue out of it. It looks big because it happens in Delhi but many more shocking things happen. Particularly when new states are carved out a number of very peculiar things have happened. As time passes, they are all forgotten. These are not major issues.
You believe that they may learn from their mistakes
I won’t say mistakes. What is a Minister’s role? I am not talking about AAP. I am talking about the political executive in any state. Their role is to take guidance, to take advice in writing from the bureaucrat who is paid and his whole time training is to give advice on the risks and benefits, the advantages and disadvantages of following a particular course or not following it. It is for the Minister to accept or overrule the bureaucrat in writing and whatever be his reason, be it political or based on his knowledge of the ground situation; he has to accept responsibility after considering all aspects. That is the system that needs to be followed in a democracy. It is one thing is to say that you know exactly what the ground reality is because you are in touch with people and people have told you what they want. But the other way to look at it is that you have a much larger responsibility. That is not only to appease those that are aggrieved but all those you govern.
One also carries responsibility to plan for people who never express that they are undergoing any disadvantage. Their legitimate needs have to be understood from economic and social reports. In that way all segments of society and not just those who appear the most disadvantaged people have to be looked after but only after taking guidance. And having taken advice, the Minister has no doubt weigh and consider whether what he has been told appears correct or not. That is what the IAS, IPS and so many services are trained to provide. They are expected to give correct advice to the Minister so that tomorrow if the Minister commits a mistake he knows that he did not receive good guidance and it is apparent from the files that he was not guided properly.
In the Delhi situation, the new Cabinet was required to respond to deep public anxiety, public desire and public exasperation very quickly. The feeling of exasperation was so deep-rooted that people felt that they must tell a person who represents the new party. The expectation is still that their work will be done and their problems will be solved. Situations which they have faced in the last few years will not happen again because now they have persons who understand their issues. AAP is in effect responding to that kind of anger and expectation that people have voiced. They are not working in the way that the normal government systems require to be worked. But only time will tell how effective this one –on –one approach will be.
Refusal to take car, security and fights with department Secretary. So do you think there is a flawed notion about austerity, governance?
I am not taking the side of AAP but I have been watching this tendency both among the political class as well as senior bureaucrats. It is not just the ‘lal-batti (red beacon). That is just a word-a syndrome which in turn reflects inaccessibility to people and a preference for keeping a safe distance from them. When visiting offices people are routinely prevented from meeting a person in authority because a battery of personnel secretaries, peons and others bar their access. Even telephone calls are screened unless somebody gets hold of a mobile number.
People are very upset with this kind of treatment and the expectation is that when I elected you are bound to listen to me. I think the AAP has tried to respond to these feelings of the people. So initially, they dispensed with Secretaries and started using volunteers, working in a very informal way. This may be alright for some time. But ultimately the very process of government requires that files are disposed off and most important files seek directions on policy. And if officers do their work and put files for orders, Ministers need to devote time for that. Everything cannot remain on a symbolic plane of houses and security and such-like. Those are very small things compared with the totality of the work the government administers.
Thirty-eight years of service, you have worked with many leaders. How different is AAP?
I have not worked with AAP government. How can I comment? I can comment about all the people I have worked with earlier. I have worked with several Cabinet ministers, three Chief Ministers in different in states and then Delhi Chief Minister which was completely different because it is National Capital Territory and not a state. All I can say is that 80-90 per cent of the time you get people who are very experienced, very mature and they have their own ways of getting what they want done. They leave bureaucrats to do quite a lion’s share of the work. It is not that they are politically interested in everything that goes on. India is running only because of systems like that. Otherwise the whole place would have been chaotic by now.
Since I have not been in the AAP offices I don’t know their style. I do hope that a certain degree of calm and quiet will prevail because that is the manner in which government ought to work. Bureaucracy knows about systems and processes. Bureaucracy’s role is to provide institutional memory and a clear idea of past processes which were followed for doing something. Also to advise on the correct procedural way of doing things so that there is fair play and the rights of all citizens, including those who do not complain are also safeguarded. If the bureaucrats are not playing that role, I would blame them more for than anybody else. The Ministers of AAP are not expected to know all these procedures and requirements which are integral to governance. The bureaucracy has to tell them in writing.
There is an interesting trend. Corporates leaders joining AAP. In the past, post retirement, many top officers used to join Congress or BJP or the main regional parties in their states. However, bureaucrats look up to AAP. Why is that?
Bureaucrats by and large those who are honest would feel very comfortable with somebody who represents honesty. Bureaucrats would be willing to give the benefit of doubt to people who do not carry any baggage behind them and are unlikely to be crooks. They would not grudge them for simply being different. Everybody I meet says “give them a chance.”
With other parties, what happens is that they are always surrounded by coteries, lobbies and people who are known as leaders for 20, 30, 40 years. So a new comer has no place in that set up. Such a person will not be able, in his life time, to work up to be able to reach a place of prominence unless there is some understanding.
But in the case of AAP, the feeling is that these people do not have a background like this. One would be as important or unimportant as everybody else. And therefore, why not give this place a chance rather than run after something in which you will always be way behind everybody else who is in the queue?
You were the first woman Chief Secretary of Delhi and at that time, Delhi had a woman Chief Minister. Please share your experiences of working with Sheila Dikshit.
I was returning to the cadre from the Government of India. Most of my later career was with the Central Government. When I returned to the Delhi Government as the Chief Secretary Smt Shiela Dikshit had been Chief Minister since 1998. I came in as Chief Secretary in 2002 and I retired in middle of 2004. While people may impute a lot of things to her in terms of corruption, mismanagement of the Commonwealth Games etc I have no knowledge of where the truth lies. When I functioned as Chief Secretary she would never ask me to do anything irregular. I am not holding a brief for her. I am not close to her much as people may like to believe. What I do know is that she treated bureaucrats and me with respect and she took our advice and by and large was very amenable to accepting advice given to her. Only once in a while she would express dissatisfaction or annoyance but that was very occasional.
Of late, I am told bureaucrats are not even venturing to give advice and the very people who used to make all kind of excuses to avoid carrying out instructions are now just implementing orders without pointing out deficiencies and problems that can arise at a future date. In that case you are not doing your job. Even if the Minister expects that the orders are carried out, due process has to be followed and due processes are required to be reduced into writing by the bureaucrat. If they have failed to do that, more than Ministers, it will be their responsibility.